Yeah, like a bunch of Muslims and secularists around the world are going to start worshipping the Middle Eastern man the Church of England worship, Prophet Jesus, because of such shallow propaganda snuff.
Martin Luther never thought the Bible banned polygamy
I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. [Martin Luther]
This will raise a few Protestant Church eyebrows. In the case of the aging CofE, zimmer-frames, painted on eyebrows, Conservative party membership cards and walking sticks.
Martin Luther, as previously mentioned to a "robust" questioner, did not believe anything in the Bible (including the New Testament texts) forbade polygyny.
Who was Martin Luther, only a massive spark for the Protestant movement and the subsequent Protestant Church.
We’ve already mentioned Augustine to Islamophobes.
"Saint Augustine believed that the Bible allowed for polygamy, but only for the purpose of procreation and only if the law of the land allowed it" [Source]
Dated feminism of Lizzie Schofield (and St Nicholas Church Tooting)
I highly suspect the lurch to the anti-polygamy pews is actually based on what these people believe to be feminism and the zeitgeist (spirit of the age). In true Church of England fashion, the spirit of the age is highly influential in interpreting the Bible – you don’t end up sitting on billions of quid worth of assets if you’re not mindful of public and governmental opinion. Church of England members increasingly support the ordination female priests simply because of the public opinion in Britain moving in that direction. It’s seen as bigoted and anti-woman to not allow females to have overall leadership in churches, the Church of England folk obligingly alter their hermeneutical approach and abandon previous leanings which do not comply with the spirit of the age. Even those (largely older members like CJ Davis) who offer resistance do it mealy mouthed. If somebody can pull up the archived sermon of CJ Davis’ “hot-potato” discussion on female clergy you’ll see what I mean. That could be put forward as a dictionary example of “mealy-mouthed”. CJ, this is my observation which I feel many others will share around your handling of that discussion. I suspect that uneasiness and lack of confidence was because you were going against the zeitgeist. I wonder what you’d have advised King Henry VIII back in the day...assuming you weren’t knocking about back in those days and actually advising him (just some silly banter!).
A growing number of CofE folks are in favour of gay marriage, in fact, it’s the majority of folks in the CofE [YouGov suggested45% of Church of England followers felt same-sex marriage was right, against 37% who believed it wrong [stats sourced from Huffington Post]. . You know what’s going to happen, they are going to change their approach and interpret the Bible to allow gay marriage. It’s already happened in some "Christian" quarters. Serving the spirit of the age.
The same, if past CofE hypocritical trends are anything to go by, will happen with plural marriage. Polyamory is an idea in the modern feminism. An opportunity for some light-hearted banter with CJ Davis, St Nicholas Church’s chief! Don’t get excited CJ Davis, the Church will probably have a different hermeneutic based on 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 for church leaders. In any case, you’ll be retired by the time they get to thinking about cashing in on plural marriages. They’ve got their hands full with women bishops and gay weddings right now after the Church's drawn-out fight to overcome the biblical opposition to remarriage and divorce.
My theory is that men in the Church of England (the vast majority, 75%, of whom are struggling with porn dependency) have a teenage-boyish wet-dream view when they think of polygamy. As for the church women, being insecure and knowing the perversions their churchmen are afflicted with loudly rail against polygyny simply because they fear their churchmen secretly want it. But in reality, if they had the ability to be more mature, nuanced and fair minded they’d see polygamy as a healthy alternative for a number of women around the world - with special emphasis on those in poorer countries. It basically gives women more choice, in fact, the feminist ideal is built on widening the choice women have. Would there not be an argument to say it’s anti-feminist to deny women the right to share a husband. I’m not arguing from a feminist stand-point and I think the widening of choice narrative ultimately leads to unregulated plural relationships (not even marriages) which both the Christian (well, the dying breed of Christian who is not hypocritically following the zeitgeist and who actually accepts the Bible as an authority wholsesale) and the Muslim would believe to be unacceptable.
Now, we’re seeing a new tangent in feminism, I strongly suspect St Nicholas Church’s resident staunch feminist, Lizzie Schofield, (well, staunch feminist when she’s bashing Islam but not so much a whimpering feminist when it comes to her Trinitarian Church beliefs about Jesus – hypocrisy is rife in the CofE – nothing new to see here) is not aware of this movement against monogamy.
I’ll just dump a couple of quotes from Laurie Penny below and leave it to folks to use their brains. Men at St Nicholas church, please do not go pestering the clergy at your church to allow polyamory. I’m not advocating unfettered polyamory. I’m just saying a regulated form of polygyny does provide women a good alternative and a useful option in real life, especially women outside our cultural and geographical parameters so it just seems really shallow and culturally imperialistic of the CofE to bash Islam and denounce Islamic regulations on polygamy [the man can only marry another woman (maximum 4) if he has the financial means and ability to look after the wives equally [and for the immature churchmen, nope get your minds out of the gutter, they aren’t all allowed to have sex together. In fact, it’s the same churchmen who have an unhealthy fascination with the Muslim belief that there is sex in Paradise, so what if there’s sex in Paradise? If Paradise is going to be better than this life then it will have the best of the physical (food, friendships, companionship, clothing housing etc.) and the best of the spiritual (the relationship to God which is the ultimate experience in Paradise, far superseding the physical). Of course, the promise of better material in an everlasting Paradise helps keep the Muslim away from the ephemeral pursuits in this life which ultimately makes the Muslim less worldly and more charitable].
What was that, CJ Davis or whoever instructs DCCI Ministries to fling low-level polemical mud at Islam in an effort to bring people into the Church and worship a man (Jesus)? You want the crew to ignore that common sense above, find some Muslims who don’t know English or aren’t too knowledgeable to counter the dishonest polemics and just continue reeling off the same sex-obsessed polemics against Islam in a numbers game hoping somebody is stupid/ignorant enough to sign on the Church dotted line...is the CofE trying to rack up the idiot and the part-time feminist count in the Church?
This is the same Church of England which is not meant to allow divorce (unless for adultery) and not allow divorced women to remarry. Just look at how Justin Welby “dealt with” the remarriage of Megan Markle (a divorcee), Was that to get the big wedding of the summer (and presumably big money spinner for the CofE) on? Is that tumbleweed blowing past St Nicholas Church and Lambeth Palace? Yep, in my opinion the CofE has been embarrassing Britain for centuries and still going strong!
Laurie Penny quotes:
“Paradoxically, as the moral grip of religious patriarchy has loosened its hold in the West, the doctrine of monogamous romance has become ever more entrenched. Marriage was once understood as a practical, domestic arrangement that involved a certain amount of self-denial. Now your life partner is also supposed to answer your every intimate and practical need, from orgasms to organising the school run.
Polyamory is a response to the understanding that, for a great many of us, that ideal is impractical, if not an active source of unhappiness. People have all sorts of needs at different times in their lives – for love, companionship, care and intimacy, sexual adventure and self-expression – and expecting one person to be able to meet them all is not just unrealistic, it’s unreasonable. Women in particular, who often end up doing the bulk of the emotional labour in traditional, monogamous, heterosexual relationships, don’t have the energy to be anyone’s everything.
I don’t expect anyone to be everything to me. I want my freedom, and I want to be ethical, and I also want care and affection and pleasure in my life. I guess I’m greedy. I guess I’m a woman who wants to have it all. It’s just that my version of ‘having it all’ is a little different from the picture of marriage, mortgage and monogamy to which I was raised to aspire.”
“Personally, I started practising non-monogamy in my early 20s as a statement against the tyranny of the heterosexual couple form and the patriarchal nuclear family”
Do St Nicholas Church believe Jesus cares about women in all cultures?
The Trinitarian version of Jesus is very much different to the historical Jesus. The historical Jesus is believed to have allowed the torture of wives (and the subsequent forced-abortion of any foetuses they were carrying) via the bitter water test instigated by a husband who suspects his wife of infidelity. Nor is the historical Jesus believed to have allowed the severe beating of female slaves with a rod.
The Church of England is culturally one-dimensional in my view. You’d expect it to be, it’s the Church of ENGLAND. Crikey, I’ve capitalised “England”, looking over my shoulder in case anybody thinks I’m part of the bigoted EDL or the nutty “Christian group” of Britain First.
CJ Davis, I’ve previously highlighted, to at least one of your local church members in Tooting, the damaging consequences around imposing English “Christian” cultural mores onto other cultures with respect to age of consent. Less cultural imperialism and triumphalism for the Church, more careful thought is the order of the day!
When Congolese village women, where swathes of men have been killed in civil war, are struggling to find husbands because of the shortage of men, do you really think polygamy should be banned based on a biblical hermeneutic geared to modern day Britain where we, thankfully (thanking God, not Jesus) have stability and peace in comparison to war-torn lands (war-torn lands largely because of Western, culturally “Christian”, intervention/proxy). What you’re essentially doing here is denying those foreign women the right of protection, financial stability, possibly housing and obviously children by forbidding them to marry a man who is willing to look after her as a second wife. Islam’s teachings offer these practical solutions whilst the Church of England’s teachings (as of today, subject to change tomorrow) offers nothing in practical options.
The Bible and polygamy – unconvincing hermeneutics by the Church of England for the spirit of the age
The Bible is not even clear on prohibiting polygamy, and in parts it permits polygamy by offering regulating teachings for men with wives. But hey, this is the Church of England and the Church of England will mould its texts and change its stance to fit in with what they believe to be the prevailing wind of the zeitgeist and/or self-interest (£££££££££££ and power imo). Is this not the same institution that was essentially started as King Henry VIII wanted another wife because his first wife did not bear a male heir? The irony here is, the Church of England would not have existed if Henry was allowed to marry a second wife via polygyny (or if Rome were as servile as the CofE to the requests of English monarchs) the split from the main Church was due to Henry wanting to annul* his marriage to Catherine in order to marry Anne Boleyn. Thus, the Church of England was born. What an acrimonious and contentious start to the institution, the Church of England. The CofE has been embarrassing Britain for centuries...and it’s still going!
*CJ Davis may be the only person reading who will know what I’m talking about here – CJ feel free to correct me on this or add to my knowledge. From my understanding Henry was not after a divorce, he wanted an annulment. Henry VIII actually opposed divorced so it’s a misconception to think the CofE was formed because a king wanted a “divorce”. The ditty Divorced-Beheaded-Died:Divorced-Beheaded-Survived (or whatever it is!) is probably a little inaccurate, an annulment in those times may just have been a way to get a divorce without it being called a divorce although Henry was using Leviticus to argue his first marriage was invalid if I'm nto mistaken. The CofE has traditionally been staunch against divorce as well as remarriage. There were about 300 people who were granted divorce (and allowed to remarry) by the CofE between the 1600s and the 1800ish (?) at the request of the government . Remarriage (if you had a living spouse) was only allowed from 2002 in the CofE. Is that all pretty correct? I’d be interested in knowing how clergy like you feel about this and how you reconcile this in your mind to continue to work for this institute. I’d also be interested in knowing if YOU would conduct the marriage of Megan and Harry, if you were asked to? If so, what would your reasoning be to allow itIf not, are you or your bishop be matched with more traditional (and biblical) members of the CofE for “theological affinity” on divorce and remarriage? I would love to hear your thoughts
Talking about embarrassments, the “I’ll throw the Bible under the bus to bash Islam” attitude in the CofE continues
Elizabeth Schofield’s (representing St Nicholas Church Tooting) premise in arguing against polygyny in the Bible is based on the “one flesh verse” (Genesis 2:24 and Matt 19:4-6).
Surely Elizabeth Schofield knows she and/or her colleagues in anti-Islam polemics have been told that the traditional Church view is that Moses wrote Genesis 2:24, yet he was a polygamist (had more than one wife!) so either you’re saying Moses was a hypocrite (and thus a large portion of your Bible was written by a hypocrite according to you and your Church) or that Moses did not understand the teachings he was passing on to his community. Both beliefs would lead you to question whether Moses was a prophet – talking about Moses and the Bible I would love to hear the Church in Tooting to apologise to a Muslim who brought up a passage in Numbers. Or perhaps you’ve got some complicated hermeneutics like those who try to shoe-horn the 4th century (and obviously false) doctrine of the Trinity into the Bible to avoid this dilemma? I’m all ears. CJ Davis or Robert Schofield, do you lads (adding a more working class vibe as CJ “probably never had a pot-noodle or been to a football match” Davis shudders!) care to butt in as expositors of the Bible? Thought not!
I’m just rehashing an old piece I based on Mark Henkel’s lecture on the Bible and polygamy:
The prohibition on adultery is not given in English, it was given in Hebrew. Mark Henkel teaches the Hebrew word for 'adultery' means WOMAN who breaks wed-lock. Thus through the Hebrew we see that polygamy of a man marrying more than one wife is not adultery.
And we must also keep in mind Mark Henkel's important reminder of Christian belief, Moses is believed to have written down the Law prohibiting adultery yet he had more than one wife thus showing to Christians and Jews that polygamy of a man marrying more than one wife is NOT adultery.
As for the two will be one flesh. Mark Henkel states this does not mean you cannot be one flesh with more than one woman as Moses was a polygamist.
Mark Henkel points out that the Bible also teaches one can become 'one flesh' with a prostitute. Mark Henkel contends this means that the person can be 'one flesh' with his wife and 'one flesh' with a prostitute.
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[b] 17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit. [1 Corinthians 6]
Mark Henkel believes the understanding of adultery and the one-flesh passage are not in contradiction with Polygamy
Do they believe Jesus gave wives (notice, plural!) to David?
The fact that the Church of England (essentially) believe Jesus gave David multiple wives and would have given him more wives if David wanted and that they believe Jesus gave orders regulating polygamy (not forbidding it) is kind of overlooked. A hermeneutical approach which panders to the spirit of the age or the spirit of a government, pretty close to the framework Archbishop Cranmer was operating in for Henry, what say you CJ Davis? Time for more Mark Henkel logic...
Mark Henkel says David had numerous wives and according to the Bible, God gave David those wives and if he wanted more God would have given more:
8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. [2 Samuel 12:8]
Matthew 25, as mentioned by Mark Henkel, contains a parable of a polygamous bridegroom.
Under the Old Testament Law Polygamy was never banned. It was simply regulated
If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. [Exodus 21:10]
15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him. [Deuteronomy 21:15-17]
See Mark Henkel on Polygamy and the Bible
Unintelligible sloganeering from CofE’s Lizzie Schofield
Lizzie: The reason polygamy persists in Islam, apart from the fact that it is sanctioned forever by Allah’s eternal speech, the Qur’an, is because Allah is not a personal, covenantal god. [I guess they believe Martin Luther believed in a God who is not “personal”, whatever that means. I guess they believe the Jews believe in a God who is not personal. Whatever that means. It’s the type of emotion you’ll hear verbalised from an Alpha Course influenced “Christian”, it’s of course rather unintelligible but it seems like a staple slogan for evangelicals nowadays (perhaps the Church's constant bashing of Islam for polygamy is, in part, due to xenophobia in the Church where it pits Arabs and other Eastern foreign men as abusers of women whilst the men of the Church of England are the white - quite literally white in most cases - knights of women? I don't know, are there any fair-minded church leaders to talk about this maturely and honestly rather than leaving it to the more shrill and Islamophobic types amongst CofE members who are just interested in doing low level evangelical propaganda). I wonder what they will change the slogan to *when* gay marriage and plural marriages become more accepted by the Church. I wonder whether their belief that Jesus will return with a sword for Muslim men and women has any bearing on their “personal god” slogan? I wonder if they think Jesus, a Middle Eastern man, is a personal god because they believe he’s going to return in person with a sword for those unwilling to accept Paul of Tarsus as a prophet, the Church and its Trinity doctrine A flurry of questions for CJ Davis, which I’m sure he will not bother trying to answer as he goes through the Anglican motions holding on for retirement. Nominalism is probably more prevalent in the Church of England than xenophobia despite Rev. Root’s belief the CofE is institutionally racist.]
Will St Nicholas Church in Tooting be the first to hold a polygamous wedding?
Unlikely given the current incumbents there, I would not advise anybody to bank on it. Who knows, if public opinion continues to move away from compulsory monogamous relationships then we will see stronger murmurings and even possibly action in an Anglican church within the next decade or two or three. It will start off in more liberal churches and then the more traditional churches will do what they normally do, cave in to public opinion or became really mealy-mouthed and embarrassed by their position they dare not teach it publicly. Ask yourself how many churches actively preach against divorce, sex before marriage and remarriage? They don’t because they suspect their congregations will get upset.
If you’re a church leader in the UK, who is reading this in the future, and are planning to conduct a polygamous marriage will you alert St Nicholas Church Tooting? ?Ofc, if, by then, St Nicholas Church, has not folded and turned into a pub, nightclub, supermarket or whatever else churches are being converted to nowadays – note I’m not going to do the triumphant stuff of saying it will be a mosque because I see a trend where religion in the UK seems to be on the wane and that may also include Islam (which ties in with the Islamic belief that Islam began as something strange and will end up as something strange closer to the end of time) even though pathetically desperate evangelical folks try to scare their cultural Christian comrades into action with the fear that Islam will take over (every church has its bogeyman, the CofE had the pope as its bogeyman for decades; but the bigots nowadays in the Church are increasingly choosing Islam and Muslims to replace the spectre of the “anti-christ” pope) – an appeal to Islamophobia and xenophobia to try and get folks active for the Church of England or whatever evangelical Church they labour for – I told you in my view they continue to embarrass the nation!
British Muslims integration in the UK - St Nicholas Church member
Responses to DCCI Ministries spiel
DCCI Ministries, CJ Davis, Islamophobia, Low Level Evangelical Polemics and the Bible
Dishonest Misisonaries Claiming Prophet Muhammad Allowed Beating Of Slaves
Thoughts on Paul Williams' Debate on Slavery With a Christian Lady
St Nicholas Church Asked To Explain Numbers 31
Christian Uses 1 John 2:22 To Attack Prophet Muhammad (p)
Did Jay Smith Not Teach Hatun Tash About Hell in Christianity?
Advice For Muslims On Dealing With Christian Anti-Muslim Sentiment...
A Difficulty On the Christian Idea of Salvation and Forgiveness
Synoptic Gospels and the Idea of a Pre-Existant Jesus?